When Richard Hunt started as the executive chairman of the Electronic Payments Coalition (EPC), he committed to doing the job for three months. Three years later, he is still running the show, which has kept him at the forefront of one of the most contentious battles on Capitol Hill: the fight to stop Sen. Dick Durbin’s (D., Ill.) signature legislation, the Credit Card Competition Act (CCCA). Hunt is one of the most deeply-respected advocates in Washington, known for his bluntness, his integrity, and his ability to use the entire advocacy ecosystem from public affairs to lobbying..
In his latest interview with the Washington Reporter, Hunt noted that the CCCA has lost almost all of its GOP support. When he assumed his role as the head of EPC, future Vice President JD Vance was still supporting it. Now, he said that the opposition remains “bipartisan.”
“There’s only one Republican United States senator who’s supportive of this, and that is Roger Marshall,” he said. “I think there are one or two in the United States House of Representatives out of 217, so there is great bipartisan opposition to this bill.”
While Durbin is retiring at the end of this Congress, Hunt predicts other Democratic Senators will pick up his baton if the bill remains unpassed. “I think the corporate mega stores are doing everything they can to make sure that this legacy of disaster, in my opinion, continues,” he said.
One sea change in the fight over how payments are processing has been how much more Hunt’s antagonists at Walmart and Home Deport have shifted their efforts to the states, where “they just have got to win once, and we have to win every time.”
“There weren’t any state-based issues when I started three years ago,” Hunt explained. “It was 99 percent federal, and some people thought Senator Marshall tag teaming with his liberal buddy Dick Durbin of Illinois was going to get momentum, and they did not. They never passed a bill that year.”
“Walmart and Home Depot quickly realized they were getting nowhere fast in Washington, D.C., so they went to the states, and Walmart has told everybody in town and across the country that it’s their goal to introduce a bill in each state,” Hunt added. “They tried to win in Illinois, and they were beaten back by many factions, including their own community banks and credit unions. The OCC originally came in and said that national banks would be exempt from this law. It’s ironic that Abraham Lincoln, who signed the National Bank Act, came from Illinois, where they’re trying to overturn what he started. They’re going from the land of Lincoln to the land of chaos.”
Hunt warned that the legislation in Illinois, favored by Gov. JB Pritzker (D., Ill.), could be a disaster. “It got to the point in Illinois where the only institutions that would be affected would be community banks and credit unions chartered in Illinois,” he noted. The Reporter has extensively covered the debates over payment processors in Illinois in the past. “They were going to be an outlier to the entire globe, not just in the United States, but the entire globe. So, the legislature had to extend the effectiveness for another year.”
Had the Illinois bill been enacted, Hunt explained why it would be a problem. “First off, there would be fear for me just walking in, not knowing if I’m going to be embarrassed if my card works or not, because every bank would have to make its own decision as to whether a card would work or not,” he said. “At the very least, I would have to pay for your bacon double cheeseburger using my credit card, but I’d have to go find cash to pay for the tax or tip, and that’s going to take a lot more time for the waiter to serve us when they want to get us in and out. It would require me to always have cash on hand as well; that’s the very least of our worries. But I think a lot of people would not go to Illinois; they would just bypass it because they want to put everything on their credit card and not use cash.” Illinois’s neighboring states, he added, were eager to fill the void of tourism that such a bill could create.
The position of the EPC isn’t partisan, he explained. One of his signature victories came in Colorado, where the state’s Democratic governor, Jared Polis, vetoed a bill passed by his own party in the state legislature, that would have been “even more of a disaster than Illinois, because they exempted banks under $80 billion to start with.”
“A lot of people knew this governor when he was a member of Congress, and we knew he’s a very common sensical individual, and the fact that the Democratic Senate only passed the bill by one single vote, even though the corporate megastores have been working on it for years, definitely helped,” Hunt explained of that win. “We’re able to lay our lay out our case to a Democratic governor and have it work. I think that’s a very proud moment.”
Another important win has been 21 years in the making, he added. “Another major win is a judge just gave us preliminary approval for a landmark historic settlement agreement between Visa and Mastercard and the merchants,” he said. “They’ve been working on this for 21 years. Many members of Congress have chastised us, like Thom Tillis and Lindsey Graham. They say ‘you’d better get the private sector to resolve this, because you don’t want Congress to get involved in this,’ and that’s what just happened. Just three weeks ago, the federal judge out of the Bronx said, ‘I’m giving you preliminary approval.’ This agreement will save small businesses more money than any Durbin Marshall bill ever thought about doing. It lowers interchange rates on a permanent basis for seven years. It allows the merchant to do something they requested from their previous settlement, something called honor our cards, where any merchant can accept or reject any card they desire, and we gave it to them.”
Hunt, who has seven credit cards of his own, added that Americans who use credit cards should always pay off their credit card debt as soon as they can. “I hope everybody pays off their bill by the end of the month or the end of the statement, but if it weren’t for their credit card, many people would have to rely on payday lenders, and that’s a very bad place to be,” he said.
Finally, he teased the possibility of another collaboration between EPC and the Reporter; the two teamed up for an event with Sen. Tim Scott (R., S.C.) that Hunt chaired.
Hunt said he’s eager to do another one “any day of the week, as long as that person is carrying a credit card.”
Below is an interview with Richard Hunt, the executive chairman of the Electronic Payments Coalition (EPC).
Washington Reporter:
Richard, it’s been a bit since we’ve talked; can you remind everyone how you got to lead EPC and what got you to be interested in credit cards?
Richard Hunt:
Back in 2010, I was working at the Consumer Bankers Association. I was a newbie as the head of it, and this guy, Dick Durbin, came to the United States Senate during what was going to become the Dodd-Frank bill, and offered an amendment on the floor without any regulatory oversight, without any communication with the industry, without any hearings, and he literally took a sheet of paper in the form of an amendment and started scratching off and and adding words in order to secure votes, and I remember the power of one United States senator who showed how he can draconianly affect how payments work. That amendment eventually passed; I had retired from CBA after 13 years, and I had enough talking about consumer issues, but I still had a passion in my heart for two things: the payment system and student lending. Then one of the member companies of EPC called me and asked ‘would you like to run this coalition?’ I said ‘I’ll do it for a couple of months.’ At that point, JD Vance had just signed on to the Durbin bill with Roger Marshall. They thought the other side was getting momentum. They needed somebody to come in and assist. And I said, ‘I’ll only do it if the community banks, credit unions, and all the banks and networks are all on the same page, and if it’s a top priority for them. I’m not going to come into a divisive organization.’ They said yes. I didn’t believe them, so I called them individually, and sure enough, they were all on the same page. And that’s been about three years.
Washington Reporter:
What are some of your federal priorities, and what are some of the state-based wins that you’ve had recently?
Richard Hunt:
There weren’t any state-based issues when I started three years ago. It was 99 percent federal, and some people thought Senator Marshall tag teaming with his liberal buddy Dick Durbin of Illinois was going to get momentum, and they did not. They never passed a bill that year. Obviously, JD Vance is now at the White House. Now, Roger Marshall’s on an island by himself within the GOP. He’s the only sponsor on the Republican side, but Walmart and Home Depot quickly realized they were getting nowhere fast in Washington, D.C., so they went to the states, and Walmart has told everybody in town and across the country that it’s their goal to introduce a bill in each state. They just have got to win once, and we have to win every time. They tried to win in Illinois, and they were beaten back by many factions, including their own community banks and credit unions. The OCC originally came in and said that national banks would be exempt from this law. It’s ironic that Abraham Lincoln, who signed the National Bank Act, came from Illinois, where they’re trying to overturn what he started. They’re going from the land of Lincoln to the land of chaos. It got to the point in Illinois where the only institutions that would be affected would be community banks and credit unions chartered in Illinois. They were going to be an outlier to the entire globe, not just in the United States, but the entire globe. So, the legislature had to extend the effectiveness for another year. Of course, we got lawsuits galore as well, and then the federal regulators came in as well. To go a little bit further southwest to Colorado, here we have a Democratic governor by the name of Jared Polis, who vetoed a bill that his Democratic legislature passed. They passed it by one vote in the state Senate, only after they had some shenanigans that happened, where they removed one of our supporters off a committee and put one of the opponents on the committee. He vetoed it, and I give him a lot of credit and gratitude. Now that was even more of a disaster than Illinois, because they exempted banks under $80 billion to start with, so by the time the OCC and the NCUA did their magic, you’re down to about seven banks that were going to be affected. That would have been a total disaster in Illinois and Colorado. I have no doubt whatsoever that had this bill ever become effective in Illinois, many banks would not allow their credit cards to be processed by a merchant. This is a fight between the merchants and the state, and we just got caught in the middle of it, but the problem is that politicians thought they knew how the payment system would work, and that’s a very dangerous place to be. We’re very happy about what has happened with EPC-led initiatives in Colorado, Illinois, and Delaware as well, plus in Washington, D.C. But we’re not giving up. Again, this is a Walmart priority, for them to save a few pennies on the back of small businesses. Another major win is a judge just gave us preliminary approval for a landmark historic settlement agreement between Visa and Mastercard and the merchants. They’ve been working on this for 21 years. Many members of Congress have chastised us, like Thom Tillis and Lindsey Graham. They say ‘you’d better get the private sector to resolve this, because you don’t want Congress to get involved in this,’ and that’s what just happened. Just three weeks ago, the federal judge out of the Bronx said, ‘I’m giving you preliminary approval.’ This agreement will save small businesses more money than any Durbin Marshall bill ever thought about doing. It lowers interchange rates on a permanent basis for seven years. It allows the merchant to do something they requested from their previous settlement, something called honor our cards, where any merchant can accept or reject any card they desire, and we gave it to them. Visa and Mastercard gave it to him. Now, that’ll create havoc at a grocery store, but that’s what they wanted, and that’s what they got. Small businesses across the country are firmly in support of this, but you’ve got the corporate mega stores who are opposed to it, because they don’t think they get enough relief. The greedy are getting greedier.
Washington Reporter:
What is it about Illinois with Dick Durbin leading the Durbin-Marshall credit card bill, and the Illinois Interchange Fee Prohibition Act? Is there something about that state’s business climate that leads it to strongly push policies like these that you’re opposed to?
Richard Hunt:
It’s the lack of business climate actually, because all the leaders in the business community in Illinois were on our side. It’s just politicians being bought off by mega corporate stores, and that’s what happened. There was a shortfall in their budget in Illinois, and merchants wanted to be reimbursed for their services, but the state said no, so they turned on us. That’s just their philosophy of government in Illinois, and there’s a reason why they have that reputation. Illinois relies on tourism, and it relies on convention business. You could have kissed all that goodbye had this bill ever become effective. The other states surrounding Illinois were rejoicing about the prospect of Illinois doing this; they were starting to already promote tourism in their state. ‘Don’t go to Illinois, where your credit card may not work.’ I have no doubt many credit cards would not have worked in Illinois had this bill become effective.
Washington Reporter:
In a previous interview with me, you talked about how the Durbin bill is a ‘draconian’ proposal. If it had passed, or if the Illinois state-based legislation passed, what would happen? Pretend we’re in Chicago right now, and we’re getting lunch, and you reach for your credit card, because it would be on you. What would happen?
Richard Hunt:
First off, there would be fear for me just walking in, not knowing if I’m going to be embarrassed if my card works or not, because every bank would have to make its own decision as to whether a card would work or not. At the very least, I would have to pay for your bacon double cheeseburger using my credit card, but I’d have to go find cash to pay for the tax or tip, and that’s going to take a lot more time for the waiter to serve us when they want to get us in and out. It would require me to always have cash on hand as well; that’s the very least of our worries. But I think a lot of people would not go to Illinois; they would just bypass it because they want to put everything on their credit card and not use cash.
Washington Reporter:
How does all of this fit in with affordability? The side pushing the Credit Card Competition Act talks about how that would be helpful with affordability. Obviously, EPC thinks that’s not the case. How does this fit into that debate?
Richard Hunt:
We have a great story to tell. The fact that the interchange rate has remained 1.7 percent for seven years now, for example, is very important. Will Walmart or Home Depot raise their hand if any of their products remain the same for the last seven years? I guarantee my gallon of milk, my cup of coffee at Starbucks does not remain the same. Kroger even admitted they raised prices greater than the rate of inflation during COVID. They admitted that; it’s out there in the public record. Home Depot admitted back in 2012 that they kept the so-called savings from the Durbin Amendment. They said that in a public shareholders meeting. We like our story. I wish everybody can make ends meet each and every day, each and every month, but unfortunately they can’t. We’re giving them a loan through a credit card. I hope everybody pays off their bill by the end of the month or the end of the statement, but if it weren’t for their credit card, many people would have to rely on payday lenders, and that’s a very bad place to be.
Washington Reporter:
What have you found in the three years that you’ve been running EPC that are some of those biggest misconceptions from the policy-making standpoint?
Richard Hunt:
The vast majority of lawmakers support our position. It’s just the few who are bought by the corporate mega stores who don’t. I’ve actually been very impressed by most lawmakers we deal with it, because they get it; they understand the last thing they need to have is to have the United States government telling companies what they can charge for their product or service. It doesn’t work. We’re not Europe, we’re not a socialist entity, we’re capitalistic, and any time that government gets involved in private businesses, nothing good ever comes from that. That’s why it’s never seen the light of day in the United States House Representative or in the United States Senate. You’ve just got some populist folks out there who are supporting corporate mega stores over everyday card holding constituents of theirs.
Washington Reporter:
Tell me about EPC’s membership and how they help drive job creation in their communities and across America.
Richard Hunt:
We’ve actually expanded our membership; not only do we have community banks and credit unions and banks, but we have some great partners in the airline industry, and airports, and unions. When I say it’s broad-based, it’s a whole lot better than I ever could have imagined. Obviously, airports rely on airline transportation. If the airline is not in existence, nobody’s gonna be going to the airport. They’ve been very, very involved with this; Chambers of Commerce have been as well, and a lot of these blue states that rely on travel and tourism are supporting our cause. Think about the 15 million folks who travel throughout the United States using nothing but miles that they’ve accumulated throughout the year. Sometimes it’s for vacation, but it’s also for an emergency at the last minute, where they think the airfare may not be reasonable for them, so they get to use miles to do that. Also, cash back is huge. Cash back is the number one usage of rewards, and those people making less than $70,000 use cash back more so than miles, especially around holiday season and back to school, since everything is so expensive at those times. We are a great player in the economic conditions of this country. Imagine Nevada, Colorado, New York, Florida, not having those tourists visit those states because they don’t have credit card miles anymore. Now, some people are saying that there’s no way we’ll get rid of credit card reward miles. I call BS on that. We saw what happened in 2010; you used to get reward miles on debit cards. Well, that went away. We said it would go away. We don’t always get it right in the banking industry, but we did that time, and free checking accounts went away. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad people in this world who are trying to hack into your personal information. We spend billions of dollars in this country making sure your personal data is safe and secure. If Durbin were ever to pass, there were many more successful attempts to hack into your personal accounts.
Washington Reporter:
You’ve spent a lot of years working on these issues. Is there one signature win that you’re most proud of?
Richard Hunt:
I actually think it just happened in Colorado. We were able to sit down with a Democratic governor, and show him the facts, show him what would happen. A lot of people knew this governor when he was a member of Congress, and we knew he’s a very common sensical individual, and the fact that the Democratic Senate only passed the bill by one single vote, even though the corporate megastores have been working on it for years, definitely helped. We’re able to lay our lay out our case to a Democratic governor and have it work. I think that’s a very proud moment.
Washington Reporter:
This issue does not seem like it’s particularly partisan.
Richard Hunt:
Mostly, yes. The only states they’ve gone to are blue states. They have not gone to the red states, and in Congress we keep saying it is bipartisan. There’s only one Republican United States senator whose supportive of this, and that is Roger Marshall. Period. And I think there are one or two in the United States House of Representatives out of 217, so there is great bipartisan opposition to this bill.
Washington Reporter:
When Dick Durbin retires at the end of this term, do you think that the push for his signature legislation will also be gone?
Richard Hunt:
No, I think the corporate mega stores are doing everything they can to make sure that this legacy of disaster, in my opinion, continues. I think they will get Peter Welch or Jack Reed or somebody else to follow in his footsteps.
Washington Reporter:
At our event with Tim Scott, you talked to us about why one of your go-to credit card rewards is cash back. Why is that?
Richard Hunt:
It’s one of my go-tos. I have seven credit cards; some are for miles, and some are for cash back. It just depends what that credit card offers. I love talking to Capitol Hill staffers about what they use it for: miles or cash back.
Washington Reporter:
What have you found based on those conversations?
Richard Hunt:
Most people use it for miles; they mostly go to see their family members during congressional recess. There are very few vacations, and because they have to go out of Reagan or Dulles, which are some of the most expensive airports, because it’s not that competitive, they use those miles to go home and see their family.
Washington Reporter:
What advice do you have for the hundreds of millions of Americans who use credit cards all the time about how to make sure that they’re using them as wisely as possible, and maximizing the benefits that they offer?
Richard Hunt:
The very first thing I would tell them is: pay your bill off, do everything you can to pay it off. For some of us cardholders, it is a job to make sure you take care of the rewards. For instance, one of my cards allows me to have $100 off every quarter if I make it through Resy. Last night I went to a restaurant that accepted Resys, and I got $100 off my meal, which barely covered it. Some cards are very expensive; you have to sit down and make sure you take advantage of those rewards. Some cards are one hundreds bucks a year and they do not have not as many rewards. Those are more cash back-oriented. Always take advantage of all the rewards that you get back. But my number one tip is to pay off your bill.
Washington Reporter:
Finally, we had a good time with you and Tim Scott; when do you want to do another Washington Reporter event?
Richard Hunt:
Any day of the week, as long as that person is carrying a credit card.
Washington Reporter:
I think that’s safe to say that we all are.
